I know the MPT will ask to write a memo or a brief. Writing teachers have told me that a memo is more of a objective writing, simply stating the facts, the law and the application of the law to the facts, and that a brief is more of a persuasive argument, using the cases and law to provide your client with the best possible advice.
Then what, pray tell, is a persuasive memo? I saw this in the Feb 09 MPT, and was thoroughly thrown aback by those 2 words. Am I simply distinguishing between memos and briefs incorrectly?

no offense, but if you don't even know this simple difference, you should not be taking the july exam. you should prepare thoroughly for the feb. exam in 2010.

at this point - i.e. with 3 weeks left to go - this sort of info should be second-nature.

Thanks for the dissuading remark. Either comment to help or say nothing at all. People like you are not needed on a forum that's supposed to help people.

blistceleb, if you can't or don't want to help, STFU.

Mizzy, you write persuasive memos to other attorneys (especially your boss) and for judges to read. It's all about who your audience is. If your audience is a lay person (your client) then the memo need not be persuasive.


Persuasive memo's discusses law and analyze it to make your case.

Do I make sense? I don't know if I can explain this in a simpler way. Maybe some one else can? Thanks.

in my defense, i don't think i was being out of line. at this point, you should have the basics down, such as the format of the test, the types of questions, etc., whether or not you have a complete grasp on the substantive material. my advice on taking the feb. exam instead of the one in 3 weeks is legit.

as for objective vs. persuasive memos, who your audience is utterly irrelevant. the task memo will specifically and explicitly ask you to write a persuasive piece with language such as "persuasively" and the like. for all we know, a PT could ask us to "persuasively convince our client that he has already met his prima facie case for the battery, thus will likely succeed in his action."

here, the PT would be asking us to write a letter to client that is persuasive in nature, not objective.

some of u guys are complete jokes. way too sensitive.

In my defence, I was never taught the actual difference. Uni at Essex never dealt with this kind of work, it was simply learning the law, and getting my LLM at Touro mostly consisted of survey courses for intl. lawyers, and one Legal Writing course, which taught us how to write memos. Kaplan Bar Review 3-day course also did not teach me the difference. So it was a simple question, that I hoped I would get feedback on. I went into the Feb exam, thinking that since I knew how to write a memo, everything would be dandy, and I got at least a 35% on it. Meaning I knew nothing. This time around, I want to know what I should treat differently in the MPT portion. Lighten up, celeb. You're going to tell a client that he's stupid for disclosing information to a 3rd party and turn them away from your office, our at least try to give them some freaking help? It being 3 weeks from the exam, I think ALL of us are allowed to be a bit sensitive when we're trying to seek help and all we get is asinine advice from people like you.

number one, i'm not being "asinine." if you're unsure of this basic difference on the PT, you probably have not prepared enough for this exam. you pass the bar exam by practicing how to write and answer MBE questions, not by just memorizing the law.

number two, you are not my client, so that sort of comparison is not relevant. this a wholly different situation, i.e. an online board.

number three, the fact that you got a 35% in Feb. and still do not know this differene proves point number one; you are not prepared enough for the bar exam. that's why i suggested you take the next 8 months to prepare for the feb. 2010 exam. i suppose you could take the july 2009 exam in 3 weeks, but do you really want to go to the exam knowing you have not prepared enough and deal with the consequences in nov.?

number four, stop freaking out and being so sensitive. at this point, all you can do is look at the situation objectively, and see what the best course of path is for you. that's all i'm saying. i just offered my advice to tell u that maybe feb. is better way to go, instead of july. jesus.

You made an ASSumption that she hadn't already spent substantial time studying for the MBE and the essay portion. She is not alone in leaving the MPT for last as it is an unknown universe and fairly difficult to really prepare for.

Knowing the audience is probably the best advise, insults though are obviously not cool when people are coming here for advise, moral support, and clarification of issues.

One, I didn't call you asinine. If you haven't learn the difference between calling someone asinine and calling their advice asinine, then you have lost the basic knowledge of the English language.
It's obvious you never read anything I really posted. I have had NO advice on the MPT and wanted some suggestions.
Yeah, I should throw my 250 bucks away and not even try. Nice advice you have there, buddy. Or I could get some help, at least try, and do better on my MBEs to make up for my lack in the MPT.
Yeah, but your advice still sucked since it didn't. Answer. My. Question.

Well, technically, Mizzy's attempt to "put down" blistceleb for his English proficiency is incorrect in its foundational principles.

Mizzy basically said blistceleb was making asinine comments, and blistceleb responded that he/she was not "being" asinine. By responding that he/she was not "being" asinine, blistceleb actually did not technically argue that Mizzy called him asinine. "Being" is a temporary concept and does not place a characteristic on a person indefinitely; as soon as the person stops "being" X, Y, or Z, he/she is no longer that X, Y, or Z.

Here, blistceleb in essence stated that his/her comments were not asinine, not that he/she thought Mizzy called him an asinine person. Why? Because of the word "being."

So, Mizzy, you are technically wrong re: the "English language" part. And to be honest, I don't think blistceleb's comments were out of line, either. His/her points are pretty self-explanatory, and I agree with him/her for the most part. Everyone else attacked him PERSONALLY, whereas his posts - including others on this board - are pretty dead-on.

If you got a 35% on the MPT last time and still haven't figured it out, you're probably going to fail the exam again. Good luck, though. Wish you nothing but the best.

Asking for the difference and a response of "you shouldn't take the exam" is not an appropriate answer. I haven't figured it and asked for help, which he did not provide. His posts were dead-on anything except that I'm probably going to fail. He said nothing else to contribute to the substance of my question, and therefore was not "dead-on" anything.
And no, I haven't figured it out because I have no one to teach me the difference, hence the reason why I posted it. Thanks for your vote of confidence though, but you can keep your wishes to yourself if you're going to make such a statement of my probability of failure.

Should have looked at looked at "How to Format a Legal Memo" from Barwrite first before I even posted; would have saved on a lot of animosity.
Thanks to those who actually DID answer my question though. For others, you have no idea whether my writing skills are great or not, and so no answer was provided to my question. Thanks so much on the votes of failure though. It leaves me to muse on what you do for a living.

The blistceleb poster did write something earlier about how to spot persuasive versus objective memos. How to write persuasively instead of objectively is pretty much based on common sense. You just argue for your position instead of arguing on a neutral level.

FYI, your writing skills are objectively bad. You got a 35% on the last MPT. There's no debate. These are facts.

But you can and will improve. GOOD LUCK!

LOL. You have no idea what I wrote on my other essays, dear. My writing average, not including the MPT, was a 58%. And waking up at 4 am the morning of the MBE to puke didn't help my MBE score, which contributed to my failure in the exam. So yes, objectively bad, if you didn't know the whole story.
I didn't ask for the difference between persuasive and objective writing. Literacy fail. I asked if my knowledge of the difference between memos and briefs was correct. He failed in that regards to answer my question, not the difference between how to write persuasively or objectively.

just a quick question, you have already taken the bar exam? And yet you are asking, after taking the exam, how to format an MPT? This is conflicting info as you should have already learned that the first time.

i would imagine it's a memo, but they're putting you on notice to write it persuasively (ie take a side- probably your client's) rather than objectively (ie evaluate both viewpoints)

There are 2 possible cases: (1) the OP is an idiot, or (2) this is flame.

Personally, I think this is flame. There's no way someone would be asking this question on an ONLINE BOARD, especially after having already taken the exam! Why in the hell would someone take advice from an online board instead of just buying an MPT book that explains how to write an MPT? Is this person THAT lazy and/or stupid?

Very simple. In objective memo, you argue on both sides. In persuasive memo, you argue only on one side. you usually write objective memo to your boss to show them strength and weaknesses of the case, and you write persuasive memo to judge to pursuade him that your client will win no matter what. this is just a simple way of explaining it.

Mizzy, do not engage with these idots. Ignore them and they will stop.

To passed: Read my original post; asked the difference between a brief and memo, as I have been told either could be asked on the MPT. HOW TO FORMAT AN MPT is not the same.

To USA: Not everyone is ridiculously rich and can buy every book available online to help with the bar; if you read any of my posts, you would realize why I don't have certain knowledge in the question I asked. I thought I would save myself some money by simply asking the question here. Don't people who write these helping books get enough money as it is? As for being lazy or stupid, I'll leave that up to you to ponder on as I study away.

You don't have to be "ridiculously rich" to buy BarBri's MPT book. You can find one online for about $50. If you're going to try to tell me that you can't afford even this, that's bullshit.

I, for one, still can't believe you'd go to a third party online board for this sort of information instead of getting the facts firsthand. And the fact that you didn't even know this the first time you took the exam shows how irresponsible and stupid you really are.

I would never hire someone like you. You can't even take the proper care to study for the exam, and you expect clients to spend hundreds of dollars an hour on you for your work? Gimme a freaking break.

Considering the amount of money I've spent on books as well as a study program, yeah, you'd have to be rich to try and get all this information.
Yet again, you didn't read any of my posts that explained why I didn't know this.
You no wanting to hire me has really nothing to do with this thread, does it? You don't know what kind of law I plan to work in, you assume that I even PLAN to be a practicing attorney, and none of your posts have done anything but criticize. Even BarBri themselves don't even mention anything about the MPT and how to prepare for it. But if you want to go that route, I would never hire you either since you didn't read any of the facts I mention in this thread and generated a conclusion all on your own.
As for your judgment calls, ordinary people are idiots as well for going to lawyers, 3rd persons, rather than looking at the law themselves and getting the facts firsthand. We are taught to memorize Restatements as law, when they are simply 3rd person remarks of the law from judges. Simply going to another source doesn't make everyone an idiot. I've read other posts on here that have given professional sound advice on questions. With all the laws to be memorized, I just wanted a simple answer to a confusion I had between briefs and memos.


the TL;DR version for you: you're a d!ck with no sound advice.

Yea, and you're incompetent. Have fun failing the bar again.

Have fun being a failure of a human being.

That is a subjective view. My view is objective.

Can you tell THIS difference? Or do you want me to start another post so you can have people tell you what the difference between objective and subjective is?

I know the difference between objective and subjective. Yet again, you fail to grasp the point of my thread. And your view can't be objective when you're disregarding facts.

My point that you are incompetent IS objective.

You received a 35% MPT score on the prior exam. You still do not know the differences between objective and persuasive briefs and memorandums, after having already taken the exam once and after having months since the last exam to determine the differences.

These are facts.

The stuff of about how you "puked" before the MBE or how you did on the other parts of the bar exam are IRRELEVANT. The fact that you still don't know the difference AT THIS POINT IN THE GAME makes you incompetent.

No, someone mentioned the fact that I didn't know how to write and was stupid, and so those answers are relevant. The other facts, such as never being taught how to write briefs and memos because the US LLM programs suck in regards of teaching these fundamentals and that the LLB program in England did not have such classes, are important, not to mention the fact that barprep progams do not go over the differences either. You neglected to even notice those facts at all. So no, it's not objective at all. So your "objective opinion" is also incompetent.

I will state this one more time, in a separate post, in order to eliminate confusion from you: I was asking about the fundamental difference between the structures of briefs and memos, i.e. the writing style used in them in terms of subjective/objective language. I know how to use subjective and objective language.

Difference between brief and memo

Between brief and memo

Brief and memo

=/=what is objective/subjective writing

Mizzy, if I were you I would not waste time even responding to the idiots above. Just keep cominf back, someone may give the appropriate answer to your question. Don't let anyone demoralize you. Your question is legitimate and I believe in line with intentions of this board founder. There's nothing wrong with asking such question even one day before the exam. Actually, nothing wrong with asking any bar exam related questions here.

Everyone prepares differently for the exam. Yet, what you read here is mostly claim on how some people here scored 80 in one subject but failed, missed the exam by 2 points, did 4000 MBEs and wrote 500 essays. After the exam, expect to come back and read more on how it's the "toughest" exam in decades. That's all4jd.com users for you.

You would think that if the guys know it all then they shouldn't be here. Some may even have taken the bar unsuccessfully several times but lack simple decorum and humility. Others claim they have passed and you wonder what's their business here. Well, you know by now the calibre of human beings most of these law graduates are.

However, keep your spirit up and keep doing what you are doing. Don't be discouraged by such remarks from failures.

Goodluck :-)

i agree!

1) Read the Task Memorandum First - that will usually give you a clue of the writing style

2) Do not overthink what is being asked. Everything you need to get a great score is provided. I found it helpful, after I finished reading the task memorandum, is to read the cases/law provided because that will usually provide hints to what you need to draw out from the "evidence" you have (usually, though not always the client file). To give an example, on the Ronald v. Dept. of Insurance MPT from 2/09 one of the cases discussed a signature by someone other than the correct person. That was a clue to look at the report provided and notice that it was not signed by the appropriate person

3) When in doubt, if it is for a judge or a court it is likely going to be persuasive

To Ignore: Hey, it provided me with great entertainment throughout the day as I tested myself with flashcards. Not to mention, for some reason, it categorized all the information in my mind appropriately and got me a 72% on a practice test since I've been in a slump all week. Plus I like arguments, even silly ones where people constantly miss the point. If I didn't, then I wouldn't be trying to get into the field. ;)
I agree with you, though, that no question, on a forum such as this, is a stupid one. I mean, even some of the simple ones such as the thread on bringing a snack into the exam room have been answered. In the back of mind, I imagined some of the trolls being lawyers who don't remember being in this position of feeling helpless and resorting to sleeping with books under their pillows; they have gone and become "one of those".

To Michael: Thanks for the advice. I got the Ronald MPT as well, I think, but have no recollection of a signature. Is that the NY one you're talking about?

I am happy for you and wish you the best on the exam, but you are DEAD wrong that barbri does not explain ALL of the MPT info you are looking for as well as show you the pattern of types of MPT's and what to expect.

Good luck on the exam.

You missed my point as well, you should have already known the difference between a memo/brief before the last exam, as well as who your audience will be.

When it comes down to it, all you have to know is persuasive or objective. If it is a memo then format it as a memo with the heading MEMO to Mrs. Smith, you get the points right there for titling the damn thing as a memo. It is all explained in Barbri.

The BarBri course I took did not explain it, as it was the 3-day review, and was the only thing available through the school I attended.
Should have known, but didn't, as I explained. I had a writing course that taught how to write a memo, but that was it.